TMBRA - Rider Board

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

TMBRA Scholastic Competition

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TMBRA - Rider Board Forum Index -> Questions for the Board
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LTR_Paul
New


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:47 am GMT +0000    Post subject: TMBRA Scholastic Competition Reply with quote

Hi, this is Paul Carroll from the LTR (previously HBLT) middle school mountain bike team. I haven't received any word on how we can help set up a scholastic competition for next spring's MTB season, so wanted to get in touch with you in case my spam filters had misplaced something you sent. Our team and others are very interested of course, and want to make sure we can make some progress around rules, bringing in other middle-school teams, etc. What's the best way to get started?

Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tobin Behling
TMBRA Board Member


Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 3153
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:31 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick Mabus is working on this effort.

I'll point him in the direction of this forum thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
LTR_Paul
New


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:51 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick, any updates on how we can help this along?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Scott S
TMBRA Board Member


Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 3056
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:55 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, we are having a call in board meeting next Monday, I'll ask Rick for an update on that.
_________________
Masters 60+;

Rocky Hill and Warda Race Director; TMBRA President
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
LTR_Paul
New


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:13 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any updates?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Scott S
TMBRA Board Member


Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 3056
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:46 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not at the meeting, I will reach out to Rick.
_________________
Masters 60+;

Rocky Hill and Warda Race Director; TMBRA President
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
LTR_Paul
New


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:41 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Updated Draft

Key points of interest:
- Almost identical to existing Team challenge rules for scoring, awards, and fees, but limited to a single season (2018 Texas XC Mtn. Bike State Championship Series)
- Additional team makeup rules to keep scholastic league focus.
- All races within existing TMBRA categories and racers can still go for individual results.
- Largely volunteer run (scoring, tracking, etc).



TMBRA Scholastic League Draft Updated 2017/11/01

1) Team Eligibility
--1.1) Scholastic teams must have a scholastic association.
--------The team name does not have to match a school system name, and could even use the name of a sponsoring cycle shop for example.
--------The team does not need official/legally binding support from a school system, and can organize independently.
--------However, if a school system contacts TMBRA to reject the association, the team members from that system or the entire team may be disqualified at TMBRA board discretion.
----1.2) Scholastic teams must be associated with a specific area, typically a single public school district or a single private school system.
----1.3) Where a single school district may not have enough racers to field a full team, a single team may encompass several adjacent districts/systems.
--------Areas must be adjacent. Any exceptions must be approved by the TMBRA board with feedback solicited from the leadership of other scholastic teams.
----1.4) Appropriate team examples:
--------Dripping Springs (single school district)
--------West Houston Composite (Katy ISD, Spring Branch ISD, Alief ISD, all adjacent)
--------Saint Wenceslas Academy Racers (Private school system which may overlap public districts, see section 2.6)
----1.5) Not appropriate examples:
--------I-35 Composite (including racers from San Marcos and Waco)
----1.6) The TMBRA board may, at its discretion, require teams deemed too large to split into smaller teams.

2) Team Members
----2.1) Team racers fall into two categories: Scoring and NonScoring. All team members may race in the team’s name, but only Scoring racers contribute to Scholastic League rankings.
----2.2) Scoring members must:
--------Race in correct age/gender TMBRA Categories/Classes (Junior, Cat3, or Cat2). No Pro racers.
--------Be a student in good standing (see section 2.4)
--------Must belong to the team’s defined scholastic area (see section 1)
----2.3) NonScoring members are:
--------Coaches, parents, graduated students, hangers on, acquaintances, etc.
----2.4) Student in good standing
--------Scholastic racers must be current students, with passing grades and not suspended or expelled.
--------By racing, eligibility is asserted by both the team leadership and the racers using an honor system.
------------The TMBRA board may investigate alleged violations and require teams to provide supporting materials.
------------Violations can result in loss of the racer’s points for one or more races, or for the team or disqualification of the entire team, at the TMBRA board’s discretion.
----2.5) Racers from areas covered by a scholastic team may not race for a different scholastic team without approval from the TMBRA board.
--------E.g. Racer Ralph from SchoolDistrict1 cannot race for the team of neighboring SchoolDistrict2 if SchoolDistrict1 has a team.
--------This rule is intended to prevent racers from ‘defecting’ to teams perceived as better rated, and to prevent teams from pulling in hand-picked members from neighboring areas to create a ‘super team’.
----2.6) Home schoolers and private schoolers within the scholastic area can be team members.
--------Where teams for public and private school systems overlap, racers must race for the team associated with their school system.
----2.7) Team roster of scoring members must be provided by the team leadership and kept up to date (see section 4).
----2.Cool Scholastic racers race in their designated category along with non-scholastic racers (Cat 1, 2, or 3), and can earn individual rankings like any other racer.

3) Scholastic Meets: Camping, Pre-Riding and Racing
----3.1) Scholastic teams are encouraged to communicate directly and select 5 or more of the 8 season races for team participation, aka ‘Scholastic Meets’.
--------Teams are highly recommended to contact each other, the race organizer, and TMBRA well in advance to allow easing race scheduling problems. Ideally Cat 3 age 18 and under races will be grouped together, but schedule is ultimately up to the race organizer.
--------Race organizers and TMBRA will attempt to announce higher-than expected youth turn-out when notified, to prepare other riders for potential pre-ride congestion.
--------Scholastic races (Jr through Cat3 15-1Cool will be grouped together as the first races on Sunday mornings, to the best of TMBRA and race organizers’ abilities.
----3.2) Scholastic racers can participate in any season race and contribute to their team’s standings (see section 4.1), the “Scholastic Meet” designation is simply an inter-team coordination effort intended to:
--------Ease congestion in pre-riding the course.
--------Encourage scholastic community in pre-riding, team-building activities, camping, and racing.
--------Accommodate student/parent schedules.
--------Allow race organizers to anticipate higher crowd levels and infrastructure requirements.

4) Scoring, Awards, Costs
----4.1) Team score follows TMBRA team challenge scoring (http://tmbra.org/team_chal/team.htm), but shortened to a single season (Texas XC Mtn. Bike State Championship Series)
--------The top FIVE highest placing finishers for each team will determine the team's total score for each race event.
--------The best FIVE team totals will count towards the overall team score (out of EIGHT race events)
----4.2) Recognition / Awards follows TMBRA team challenge (http://tmbra.org/team_chal/team.htm) but with a separate set of trophies
----4.3) Team roster follows TMBRA team challenge rules (http://tmbra.org/team_chal/team.htm), specifying that the team is participating in the Scholastic League on the roster.
----4.4) Fees and charges are the same as per the Team Challenge rules (http://tmbra.org/team_chal/team.htm): $75 per team and $5 per riderded to the top 5 scholastic teams.
----4.5) Participation in PayDirt is encouraged at the team level and can contribute to individual scores, but does not contribute to Scholastic team score.




Thanks!
Paul Carroll


Last edited by LTR_Paul on Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:59 pm GMT +0000; edited 6 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Scott S
TMBRA Board Member


Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 3056
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:20 am GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, please shoot me an email with some contact info so we can discuss further.
I believe the idea at the last board meeting was incorporating a scholastic division into the existing Team Challenge program. Your proposed rules could easily be the platform for eligibility.
I think the sticking point I see is creating a separate wave for scholastic racers. There’s just not enough time in the day to do that on any kind of regular basis. I think they should remain incorporated into their appropriate age/category races as the ones who raced this year were.
_________________
Masters 60+;

Rocky Hill and Warda Race Director; TMBRA President
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
LTR_Paul
New


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:41 am GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott S wrote:

I think the sticking point I see is creating a separate wave for scholastic racers. There’s just not enough time in the day to do that on any kind of regular basis. I think they should remain incorporated into their appropriate age/category races as the ones who raced this year were.


I think I was sabotaged by the post formatting (it also lost a lot of indentation making it harder to read). I agree completely:
Quote:
3.3) Scholastic racers race in their designated category along with non-scholastic racers, and can earn individual rankings like any other racer.


The only 'additional time / scheduling' required is to ensure that at designated 'scholastic meet' races, there is essentially reserved pre-ride time on Saturday and the '18 and under cat 3' races for both sexes are the first races on Sunday. Not additional race categories, just scheduled so the scholastic teams can support teammates. Having half the team race on saturday and half on sunday breaks the team practice,camp,race together spirit.

I'll follow up with you directly.... assuming I can figure out how Smile[/code]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LTR_Paul
New


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:12 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be revising the above proposal with a focus on:

- Rather than "scholastic meets", teams will need to work directly with race organizers (not TMBRA) to try to 'massage' the start times to accommodate scholastic team riders.

- Scoring will need to move closer to traditional Team Challenge scoring where the top N scores from each team are used, not going all the way through 30th place or more.

- Pre-riding by large groups of scholastic riders will be eased by coordination with race organizers and TMBRA announcements, not by 'reserving' the course.

Suggestions for team and racer eligibility will likely receive some tweaks as well, but seem good. I hope to have a final proposal communicated to potential scholastic teams and TMBRA board by the Nov 4 meeting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LTR_Paul
New


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:52 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Draft Updated Above Reply with quote

I've updated the draft above. I will be taking this proposal to the other known-interested teams (I have leads on at least 3 or 4 outside LTR).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LanceThornton
New


Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:28 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Dripping Springs Comments to Scholastic Rules Reply with quote

Lance Thornton Dripping Springs
Thanks for getting everyone started on this.
Will post comments in Red

Updated Draft

Key points of interest:
- Almost identical to existing Team challenge rules for scoring, awards, and fees, but limited to a single season (2018 Texas XC Mtn. Bike State Championship Series)
- Additional team makeup rules to keep scholastic league focus.
- All races within existing TMBRA categories and racers can still go for individual results.
- Largely volunteer run (scoring, tracking, etc).



TMBRA Scholastic League Draft Updated 2017/11/01

1) Team Eligibility
--1.1) Scholastic teams must have a scholastic association.
--------The team name does not have to match a school system name, and could even use the name of a sponsoring cycle shop for example.

Would like to keep school or district name to keep scholastic feel.

--------The team does not need official/legally binding support from a school system, and can organize independently.
--------However, if a school system contacts TMBRA to reject the association, the team members from that system or the entire team may be disqualified at TMBRA board discretion.
----1.2) Scholastic teams must be associated with a specific area, typically a single public school district or a single private school system.
----1.3) Where a single school district may not have enough racers to field a full team, a single team may encompass several adjacent districts/systems.
--------Areas must be adjacent. Any exceptions must be approved by the TMBRA board with feedback solicited from the leadership of other scholastic teams.
----1.4) Appropriate team examples:
--------Dripping Springs (single school district)

Do we need to be Dripping Springs Composite since we have home schoolers and a few private academy students on our team? All local though!

--------West Houston Composite (Katy ISD, Spring Branch ISD, Alief ISD, all adjacent)
--------Saint Wenceslas Academy Racers (Private school system which may overlap public districts, see section 2.6)
----1.5) Not appropriate examples:
--------I-35 Composite (including racers from San Marcos and Waco)
----1.6) The TMBRA board may, at its discretion, require teams deemed too large to split into smaller teams.

2) Team Members
----2.1) Team racers fall into two categories: Scoring and NonScoring. All team members may race in the team’s name, but only Scoring racers contribute to Scholastic League rankings.
----2.2) Scoring members must:
--------Race in correct age/gender TMBRA Categories/Classes (Junior, Cat3, or Cat2). No Cat1 / Pro racers.

Why no Cat 1? What happens if a Junior wins his or hers Cat 2 season?

--------Be a student in good standing (see section 2.4)
--------Must belong to the team’s defined scholastic area (see section 1)
----2.3) NonScoring members are:
--------Coaches, parents, graduated students, hangers on, acquaintances, etc.
----2.4) Student in good standing
--------Scholastic racers must be current students, with passing grades and not suspended or expelled.

Not sure that I want to keep up with grades. What about the family that riding is the release for the student? Racing should be parents decision not coaches.

--------By racing, eligibility is asserted by both the team leadership and the racers using an honor system.
------------The TMBRA board may investigate alleged violations and require teams to provide supporting materials.
------------Violations can result in loss of the racer’s points for one or more races, or for the team or disqualification of the entire team, at the TMBRA board’s discretion.
----2.5) Racers from areas covered by a scholastic team may not race for a different scholastic team without approval from the TMBRA board.
--------E.g. Racer Ralph from SchoolDistrict1 cannot race for the team of neighboring SchoolDistrict2 if SchoolDistrict1 has a team.
--------This rule is intended to prevent racers from ‘defecting’ to teams perceived as better rated, and to prevent teams from pulling in hand-picked members from neighboring areas to create a ‘super team’.
----2.6) Home schoolers and private schoolers within the scholastic area can be team members.
--------Where teams for public and private school systems overlap, racers must race for the team associated with their school system.
----2.7) Team roster of scoring members must be provided by the team leadership and kept up to date (see section 4).
----2. Scholastic racers race in their designated category along with non-scholastic racers (Cat 1, 2, or 3), and can earn individual rankings like any other racer.

3) Scholastic Meets: Camping, Pre-Riding and Racing
----3.1) Scholastic teams are encouraged to communicate directly and select 5 or more of the 8 season races for team participation, aka ‘Scholastic Meets’.
--------Teams are highly recommended to contact each other, the race organizer, and TMBRA well in advance to allow easing race scheduling problems. Ideally Cat 3 age 18 and under races will be grouped together, but schedule is ultimately up to the race organizer.
--------Race organizers and TMBRA will attempt to announce higher-than expected youth turn-out when notified, to prepare other riders for potential pre-ride congestion.
--------Scholastic races (Jr through Cat3 15-1 will be grouped together as the first races on Sunday mornings, to the best of TMBRA and race organizers’ abilities.
----3.2) Scholastic racers can participate in any season race and contribute to their team’s standings (see section 4.1), the “Scholastic Meet” designation is simply an inter-team coordination effort intended to:
--------Ease congestion in pre-riding the course.
--------Encourage scholastic community in pre-riding, team-building activities, camping, and racing.
--------Accommodate student/parent schedules.
--------Allow race organizers to anticipate higher crowd levels and infrastructure requirements.

4) Scoring, Awards, Costs
----4.1) Team score follows TMBRA team challenge scoring (http://tmbra.org/team_chal/team.htm), but shortened to a single season (Texas XC Mtn. Bike State Championship Series)
--------The top FIVE highest placing finishers for each team will determine the team's total score for each race event.

Would like to see 5 increased to 10. Have a lot of kids that are discouraged because their points never count.

--------The best FIVE team totals will count towards the overall team score (out of EIGHT race events)
----4.2) Recognition / Awards follows TMBRA team challenge (http://tmbra.org/team_chal/team.htm) but with a separate set of trophies.

Only for finals right? Otherwise scored as individual racers in their category.

----4.3) Team roster follows TMBRA team challenge rules (http://tmbra.org/team_chal/team.htm), specifying that the team is participating in the Scholastic League on the roster.
----4.4) Fees and charges are the same as per the Team Challenge rules (http://tmbra.org/team_chal/team.htm): $75 per team and $5 per riderded to the top 5 scholastic teams.

$75 per team and $5 per rider? Can this money be designated to certain things? IE: start and finish line banners, etc.

----4.5) Participation in PayDirt is encouraged at the team level and can contribute to individual scores, but does not contribute to Scholastic team score.

If it contributes to individual scoring how are we going to back it out as a team?

Other comments:

Middle School and High School scored as separate teams, in separate categories and different trophies? Maybe grouped in the 12-14 and 15 and over?
What does scoring look like? At least 1 girl, and 1 rider from each Category (Cat 3, Cat 2, Cat 1) then fill in the rest of top 5-10 with highest remaining scorers?
Do Cat 1 get more points than Cat 2 and Cat 2 more than Cat 3? My gut says no but hate to think about sand bagging
Top 5-10 riders have to Cat up each season?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LTR_Paul
New


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:26 pm GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
Would like to keep school or district name to keep scholastic feel.

I agree, and most/all teams would likely do so. However I don't think it needs to be enforced. Shouldn't force any team that isn't strictly a single school district to adopt a "XYZ Composite name. Speaking of which:
Code:
Do we need to be Dripping Springs Composite since we have home schoolers and a few private academy students on our team? All local though!

No, you should be able to be "Dripping Springs", "Drip Racing", or anything you think adequately represents you.

Code:
Why no Cat 1? What happens if a Junior wins his or hers Cat 2 season?

I think the "no cat 1" snuck in from an earlier edit. It hasn't come up for us yet, but I'd be happy to include cat 1 if that's their appropriate category. Editing to make that change.

Code:
Not sure that I want to keep up with grades. What about the family that riding is the release for the student? Racing should be parents decision not coaches.

I can see both sides to this -- on one side you're right, neither TMBRA nor the coaches can actually audit grades. However this is a _scholastic_ competition, and having at least an honor-bound policy of scholarship I think should be required. It's not just about the racing, it's about being well rounded. At the very least the coaches should have the authority to say "you just punched a teacher and are suspended, you're off the team whether your parent likes it or not, whether you think you can win or not". This is why the next line says it's "asserted" using an "honor system". If you do know a member is flunking out or suspended, they shouldn't race.

Code:
Would like to see 5 increased to 10. Have a lot of kids that are discouraged because their points never count.

I agree with this one -- the original draft even had a racer contributing a single point if they at least finished the race. However, as has been pointed out, this would skew results in favor of a 100+ member team ahem I might be associated with. I don't want to slant the rules against a team that can only field 5 riders though, hence going with the current TMBRA Team Challenge rules of 'top five' in the draft. I would be quite happy with 'top 10' instead, especially if other teams we're hoping to join us agree.

Code:
Only for finals right? Otherwise scored as individual racers in their category

Correct, the scholastic team awards are only given out at the finals, for the entire season. At each individual race, individuals can still podium if they're in the top N places etc.

Code:
$75 per team and $5 per rider? Can this money be designated to certain things? IE: start and finish line banners, etc.

Per meeting with Scott, the fees would explicitly pay for:
1. $5/rider: "This fee will be used strictly for administrative costs, trophies, banners and other expenses."
2. The $75 team fee would also be used for materials (e.g. initial purchase of the "travelling trophy") but any excess would be donated to IMBA.
I think we can probably work with Scott or delegate to be clear on exactly what would be paid, e.g. t-shirts I think were mentioned, but the fees seemed reasonable.

Code:
If (PayDirt) contributes to individual scoring how are we going to back it out as a team?

In calculation of team scores, only actual race scores will be considered. This can be done with a pencil if necessary, but it seems that Team Challenge scoring already works this way -- paydirt does not contribute (per our meeting with Scott). I would bet that many riders from my team will do PayDirt anyway, and we'll try to organize at least one 'whole team' PayDirt event. But I can't see a good way to have it contribute fairly to the Team score unless it's just "at least one team member has to do paydirt" or something similar. So I think we can just leave it "encouraged, but not required" for the team score.

Code:
Middle School and High School scored as separate teams, in separate categories and different trophies? Maybe grouped in the 12-14 and 15 and over?

I don't think that middle / high (or 14y or less and 15y or up since we'll be in race age categories) should be scored separately. One team. Partially because while I suspect we'll have some team members staying on rather than joining the 'official' LT high school team, I'm not sure if we'd actually have enough this first year. "One team" means teams with mixes from elementary through high school could effectively compete against each other.

Code:
What does scoring look like? At least 1 girl, and 1 rider from each Category (Cat 3, Cat 2, Cat 1) then fill in the rest of top 5-10 with highest remaining scorers?
Do Cat 1 get more points than Cat 2 and Cat 2 more than Cat 3? My gut says no but hate to think about sand bagging
Top 5-10 riders have to Cat up each season?

This is interesting territory. I intentionally left "at least one girl" out of the rules because I think it will be self-enforcing. If you have 50 Cat3 boys racing, and 6 Cat3 girls racing, a team with a girl will be much more likely to have a top 5 finish in the girls category... but I could be thinking about it all wrong. That might only work out 'well' if there really are only single-digits of girl racers, which isn't the goal. I would definitely not object to some form of "top boy, top girl, and next top three" forming the team score (or extending to top 10).
I don't think that the Cat1/2/3 differences should be involved but there's some possibilities here that would need more discussion between the teams and TMBRA. TMBRA doesn't have any forced category changes that I'm aware of, and the fact that 15-18 isn't a championship category may be enough to encourage the stronger older riders to move to cat 2. This might be something we can take up again at the end of the season in a 'lessons learned, and rules for next year'.

I'm getting contacts for SA and other teams from my fellow coaches, will be inviting them to view this ASAP and try to get it to TMBRA soon.

Thanks for the great feedback!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lisa Nye-Salladin
TMBRA Board Member


Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 1396

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:52 am GMT +0000    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been involved with the Team Challenge since it's inception with TMBRA. We have had many different formats including scoring one women, one junior and then open for the rest. We've also included more people contributing to points but that does favor the largest teams.

What we have now makes for simpler scoring- the first races are some work to make sure that names, class/ categories are correct.

the $75 goes to TMBRA, the $5 per rider goes to trophies and banners. Based on overall participation we sometimes can afford T-shirts. There is a traveling trophy that goes to the winning team for the year.

Just some thoughts.
Lisa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TMBRA - Rider Board Forum Index -> Questions for the Board All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group